What does "butch" mean, anyway?

[cdybedahl]

I knew when I started the Butchmatch thing that not everyone used the same definition of butch. What surprised me was how much the definitions varied. I had the illusion that at least those involved in lesbian social contexts would use the word with roughly the same meaning, but the feedback I got from that side of things was not only varied but included definitions that were actually mutually exclusive.

This fascinated me.

So I decided to run yet another poll, and ask people what they mean by "butch" and "femme". This is that poll. I'd really appreciate it if as many of you as possible fill it out, because I am intensely curious. If the space given in the text boxes isn't enough (which is likely, since LiveJournal limits it to 255 characters), please use a comment instead. I will do my best to write up a summary of the results in a few days or so.

CLARIFICATION: "Non-straight" is meant with the math/computerese sense of "not". That is, it is intended to mean "Everything that is other than straight". It is not meant to indicate that other than straightness is somehow inferior! I apologise for this. You may choose to blame my insensitivity on me being an ex-mathematician or on me being a white middle-class western-european male.

[Poll #286784]

Comments

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Two things: I really hated clicking the "non-straight female" button - I'm not negatively straight, I'm positively queer. But also: as a feminist queer femme (sort of), I suspect I define femme-ness rather more positively than many people I hear using it. My take on butchness is that it's sometimes associated with a rather twisted form of misogyny - I find it odd to be condemned by queer women for not behaving enough in ways associated with men. I don't regard masculinity or butchness as anything positive to aspire to. I don't care what others do with themselves, but, personally, my orientation is female, and everything I do is about the positive nature of that.

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

I really hated clicking the "non-straight female" button - I'm not negatively straight, I'm positively queer.

My apologies for that. My thought was of "not" in the mathematical sense of inversion (so, "everything that is other than straight"), but I see what you mean. Unfortunately, one can't edit polls :-(

And thank you for answering. You're one of the people I most hoped would answer when I posted the poll.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Ah, that's okay. One day I'll post a poll where I will get people to declare themselves "queer" or "unqueer", and see what happens - I suspect it would get very different results to what you asked, as being same-sex-oriented in whole or part doesn't always make people define as queer, and also the converse. It's a tricky definitional thing. (And actually, I am also someday going to post a rant about the fandom extended use of bang - as in "fuckwit!teacher". Does that not mean a fuckwit who is not the/ a teacher?)

And, well, I hope if you were hoping for me to respond, I responded in a manner living up to hopes!

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

someday going to post a rant about the fandom extended use of bang - as in "fuckwit!teacher". Does that not mean a fuckwit who is not the/ a teacher?

I'd love to know the etymology behind that use of !. As you say, it makes no sense with the negation meaning of !. But it makes quite a bit of sense if one sees the ! as the separator in an old UUCP-style path (where fuckwit!teacher would mean that "teacher" exists within/behind "fuckwit"), only I can't see how that meaning could reasonably have made it into the parts of fandom where this usage is common.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

'd love to know the etymology behind that use of !.

I think - though I'm not sure I have any reason for thinking - that the simple ! originally meant an alternate version of the character, so !Buffy made lots of sense. But then it evolved into descriptions of the various alternate characters, which, while they were all !Buffy, were not sufficiently described by that, and so acquired a prefix (vampire!Buffy). But then, the ! is redundant as a negative, as the prefixed modifier says to what extent the character is as canon.

That much is a guess (though I do associate it rather strongly with popslash and its many alternate universes), but I'm fairly sure I've watched the usage bleed from fandom activities into fandom people's daily lives. But since, in their daily lives, people rarely encounter alternate reality versions of people they deal with, usage has further evolved into simple descriptors.

And, as a linguist, I should merely be interested, but as a geek, I'm sort of annoyed. But if I can use your UUCP explanation to calm my geek nerves, I'll probably be fine :)

[themongkey.livejournal.com]

Teacher is an element of the collection fuckwit? It vaguely makes sense. Although trying to decide if by extension all teachers are fuckwits or if this particular fuckwit just happens to be a teacher makes my head hurt.

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

The meaning would be almost exactly the same as the more modern teacher@fuckwit, in this case.

[themongkey.livejournal.com]

On a related note: free webmail at http://www.fuckwit.co.uk/

I wonder if teacher@ that domain is available?

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

I find it odd to be condemned by queer women for not behaving enough in ways associated with men

I find it equally odd that a feminist should think that wearing jeans, shirts, short hair, no make-up, trainers or boots, etc, are behaviors "associated with men" and therefore not positive.

Don't get me wrong: while I'm prepared to give babydykes a bit of leeway on being stupid about what makes a lesbian a lesbian, on the basis that with any luck they'll grow out of the idea that being a lesbian requires you to wear Doc Martins, drink beer by the pint, and own cats, I think the kind of idiocy that says you can't be a real lesbian if you're wearing a skirt and make-up is just that: idiocy.

A girlfriend once asked me if I always wore men's clothes. I told her I never did: I chose my clothes, paid for them, and wore them, and I'm a woman, therefore they're women's clothes. The fact that clothing manufacturers refuse to believe that some women really are my height and build, and like to wear jeans with big pockets, and prefer broad-fitting shoes... is not my problem: it's theirs. (Though one major advantage of clothing that is supposedly manufactured exclusively for men is that it's much better quality: clothing manufacturers assume that men don't want shirts that will fall to pieces in six months, or shoes that can't stand being worn on the pavement...)

My orientation is female, and everything I do is about the positive nature of that: well, yeah. So is mine. Being butch is a positive way of being female. The fact that mainstream culture doesn't recognise that, and only recognises femmeness as a positive way of being female, is - or ought to be - irrelevant to a lesbian feminist. Whether she's femme or butch.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

I find it equally odd that a feminist should think that wearing jeans, shirts, short hair, no make-up, trainers or boots, etc, are behaviors "associated with men" and therefore not positive.

First up, I didn't say "and therefore not positive". Second up, I didn't say anything about jeans (which, as you know, I often wear), no make-up (which, as you know, is also a feature of my appearance), trainers and boots likewise. But then, that's not what I said in my definition of "butch", either... you seem to have assumed that in not seeing butchness as wholly positive, I'm referring to your definition, which I hadn't even seen when I wrote that!

What I really mean when I talk about the misogyny that I sometimes percieve in attitudes to femme women is the assumption that long hair makes a dyke weak, unwilling to be out, and an appropriate target for sexual harassment by butch women. And, yes, I have experienced that often. I do see a positive side to butchness (apart from anything else, often sexiness!), but there are negative associations with it too, and Calle's definition of it as "all unconventional femaleness" really put my back up.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

you seem to have assumed that in not seeing butchness as wholly positive, I'm referring to your definition, which I hadn't even seen when I wrote that!

Nope. I was reacting to your comment, which I would probably have found more understandable if, when I'd read it, I'd first read Calle's definition of butchness, which I hadn't until after I read your comment!

What I really mean when I talk about the misogyny that I sometimes percieve in attitudes to femme women is the assumption that long hair makes a dyke weak, unwilling to be out, and an appropriate target for sexual harassment by butch women.

Yes: you've mentioned this before in off-LJ conversations. I'm not sure I'd call that misogyny: but then I don't think there is a word for it. ("Sexual harassment" describes it perfectly well, but that's two words.)

I do see a positive side to butchness (apart from anything else, often sexiness!), but there are negative associations with it too,

Well, yes. That's how I feel about both butchness and femmeness: positive side, including sexiness, but negative associations that go with both images. Can you think of a style of dressing that doesn't have both positive and negative associations?

Calle's definition of it as "all unconventional femaleness" really put my back up.

It put my back up too.

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

Calle's definition of it as "all unconventional femaleness" really put my back up.

Really? Why? Does it imply something negative or disapproving to you? It doesn't to me. To me, "unconventional" not only describes myself, but also all my friends and most of my family. So I tend to see it as something positive.

Anyway, I'm doing this poll because I realised that my understanding of the whole butch/femme thing was grossly incomplete or downright broken, and I do hope to get at least a more informed opinion from this (although I can't promise it'll be one you'll like any better, of course).

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Really? Why? Does it imply something negative or disapproving to you?

Very much the opposite! It's very positive and approving - but it's assigning those positive things somewhere that I think they don't belong. I mean, I don't think my appearance or behaviour are conventional, but I identify as femme (insofar as I identify as anything - very definitely not butch). Strength and unconventionality are definitely not the exclusive property of butch women. Butches and femmes might pick up different weapons, but we're equally able to defend and attack.

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

*ponder* I think I see what you mean. And now that you mention it, I relise that I have been associating "butch" and "strong" far too strongly. In spite of having known a couple of pretty damn clear examples of the opposite for years, too. Do'h!

The most annoying thing about realising things like this is that it makes me wonder what else that's right in front of me that I'm missing.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Argh. Calle, next time you do a write-in text box in a poll, keep the visible length to something social like 30?

Further, though I put in the definition I tend to use most often, I can think of at least two other definitions I also use -

1. Butch/Femme meaning the lifestyle codes of the 1950s, best described by Merrill Mushroom. Historic use only.

2. Butch/Femme meaning actions stereotypically associated with being "masculine" or being "feminine". Humorous use only.

The definition I gave in the quiz is the one I mostly use seriously - butch/femme are basically "image", depending on how you choose to dress, in the 20th/21st century lgbt community.

[madralaoi.livejournal.com]

Well, spending some time at the Swedish site for lesbians taught me that there are many views on this!
I only use it to try to describe a "general" maleness or femaleness without putting too much emphasise into it.
I would describe myself as butch because I have short hair and often wear "male" and clothes that show my cleavage or "shapes" but other people would perhaps think that I'm not...

[faithtastic.livejournal.com]

For me "butch" and "femme" is as much about attitude as it is about image. I also believe that lesbians can be a combination of the two - "femme" in appearance but "butch" in attitude or vice versa. Pretty much like all of the women in your Butchmatch polls.

[snowgrouse.livejournal.com]

I don't know if my results came through on this, it seems to be wonky for me again. But my two cents: I'm not that comfortable with the terms themselves but I do see them as "traditionally associated with masculinity" vs. "traditionally associated with femininity". Like brandnewgun, I've noticed a certain anti-femmeness amongst some of the lesbians I know in RL. Hell, even *heterosexuals* look at me funny when I tell them I really *like* wearing skirts. But then again I'd never change my combats for stilettos or wear make-up every day, so my concept of femme is more of what is comfortable and "feminine" to *me*. That's what I'm usually attracted to in women as well--I don't like tough machismo in men or women very much. Also, I'd consider late Gabrielle to be pretty butch, but I'd shag her in a heartbeat;).

[m0n90053.livejournal.com]

I accidentally hit Enter before I was done even filling out the first answer, and then the second time I found that my full answer was more than the allowed mnumber of characters; then I noticed that you posted April 30th and said that you were going to summarize results 'in a few days'; I'm willing to post an answer in comment form, but wonder if you're still collecting info.

[cdybedahl.livejournal.com]

Since I haven't actually got around to writing the summary, yes, I am.

[m0n90053.livejournal.com]

Egad. I was here earlier and had some difficulties, so I asked if you were still collecting info, and you said yes, that you hadn't summarized yet. So now here I am and there's a summary laid out before me. Ha! I will give you info anyway, just in case you are interested in continuing to gather even so. Thus:

What is your definition of "butch"? That is, when/if you use the word, what do you mean?
The soi-disant 'male' i.e. dominant, aggressive partner (you know better, I know better, but some people just can't break away from Old-World way of thinking); generally typified as wearing ultra-short haircut, jeans, t-shirt/flannel, work or combat boots, little or no makeup; drinks like a sailor, curses like a sailor, and some whore like a sailor. Butches often manifest behavior that strikes me as being hypocritical, as they tend to go around spouting off how superficial/unfaithful/arrogant/materialistic/whatever men are, and then display the same behavior themselves that they find so abhorrent in men.

What is your definition of "femme"? That is, when/if you use the word, what do you mean?
Usually but not always the passive partner if seen with a butch; if both partners are femmes, the relationship may be a sub/dom realtionship, or they may function as peers (in my experience, you will almost never see a butch-butch relationship, even for a one-night stand); often called 'lipstick lesbian" (though I personally find the term distasteful); the femme is a womanly woman who just happens to like other women instead of men. Femmes dress up, wear makeup, strut their stuff, and generally confuse the hell out of Neanderthalic men.

How often do you use either of the terms "butch" or "femme" in the meaning you gave above?

At least once a week

Which of these most closely describes you (in your own opinion)?

Straight male

Do you feel that "butch" and "femme" are useful terms (that is, that they carry enough clear meaning to be useful for communication)?

In certain social contexts

It would have been nice for this last one to have an essay portion- I use the terms when I know that the people to whom I am speaking will understand without clarification; otherwise, I just say 'lesbian'. The differences between 'butch' and 'femme' are substantial, and if you're talking about lesbians in general, like talking about 'lesbian and gay rights', the distinction doesn't need to be made, but there are times when one is talking about an individual that it is helpful to be able to communicate which category that individual is a member of. I would also suppose that the definitions I've given aren't quite that cut-and-dried; there are butch-looking lesbians who act in a femme manner, and the occasional femme-looking lesbian who acts in what I've described as a butch manner.