English question

[cdybedahl]

I just got a comment on a story that says that when someone is speaking about themselves and someone else, they always put the other person first. That is, like "Willow and I" rather than "I and Willow". I can't remember ever hearing of such a rule before. Have I just missed it? And if so, why has nobody ever pointed out to me before that I've been doing it wrong?

Comments

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

It depends on the context and the speaker. Most people would usually start a sentence with eg 'Willow and I', but you also get sentence structures such as 'Both I and Willow', which sound perfectly normal to me. And I've never been jarred by anything along those lines in one of your fics that I can remember.

Gina

[apel.livejournal.com]

Willow and I. Puneet and I. Fluffy, Ozzie and I. Yep, I'd put the other people first. If I wanted to stress my role, I would say "Me and Willow, we..." That's definitely not written language, though.

Incidentally German has a similar rule with a saying to help you remember: "Der Esel nennt immer sich selbst zu erst" ="The donkey always mentions herself first."

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

That's definitely not written language, though.

No, but it's definitely good spoken English, and fine if it's direct speech.

Usually it's "Willow and I", not "I and Willow", but it's not a rule so much as a convention.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

If I wanted to stress my role, I would say "Me and Willow, we..." That's definitely not written language, though.

No, but it's definitely good spoken English, and fine if it's direct speech.

Definitely bad English. "I" is always in the subject, "me" is always in the object, even if the subject or object has multiple parts.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

Definitely bad English.

Definitely good spoken English: it's a grammatical structure that's been used for at least two hundred years, and is by the test of time, good grammar.

Spoken and written English often use different constructions, and they may validly do so.

[snowgrouse.livejournal.com]

I can see "me and Willow" being all right, but somehow "I" belongs after the other person's name. Depends on the article, really.

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

It's not a rule of English, it's a matter of politeness. However, it's very firmly ingrained in people who actually bother with correct English (which you may have noticed is a rapidly diminishing number).

[mistraltoes.livejournal.com]

Oh, and you probably know this, but it's *always* 'I' for the subject form and 'me' for the object form, but it seems that more people nowadays don't know that than do; therefore you may find situations where you need to take a moment and consider your fandom and character and whether you need to write good English or (shudder) bad.

[child-of-air.livejournal.com]

Many people say it wrong- i.e. "Me and my friend", American english these days is quite horrible. Don't even get me started. Many people could have thought that you were trying to capture that slang.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

Many people say it wrong- i.e. "Me and my friend", American english these days is quite horrible.

I'm American, and I know enough to capitalize "English," to include punctuation within qutoes, to use "e.g." to indicate an example, to set "e.g." off with commas rather than an emdash, and the difference between a hyphen and an emdash.

[hawkeye7.livejournal.com]

It's one of those obscure rules of English that teachers were so fond of, and make you write out 100 times. Nobody would ever say "I and Willow" -- it is grammatically incorrect, "I" being the first person subjective. For most people, the right form ("me" or "I") is instinctive and the incorrect one simply sounds awkward and wrong. It would certainly distinguish you as a non-native speaker.

As a matter of decorum, the nearest adult would immediately correct a child who made this error but it is considered impolite to correct an adult. In the written, though, no editor would ever let it pass.

[watervole.livejournal.com]

There's two reasons for the rule. One is courtesy in that you put the other person's name first (and that's the one most people will tell you), but the second is more subtle.

"I and" is a very ugly sound and relatively hard to say. I suspect this is why people often use "me and", even though it is technically incorrect.

You will almost never hear "I and" in spoken speech, and the only reason you might see it in writing is becasue the writer hasn't tried saying it aloud.

[(Anonymous)]

In English there are two general rules, that sentences should not begin with "I" if possible, and that as a part of that, when mentioning lists of people the speaker should mention himself last.

These are not so much grammatical rules, as style rules. The purpose being to show humility, more or (usually) less sincerely.